Tuesday, December 16, 2008

PAF quotes and the Indian air Incursion

Regarding the recent air incursion by the Indian Air force in the Pakistani air space. I read an excellent analysis by Abdullah Saad at:


The following quotes taken from international media sources about Pakistani fighter pilots and PAF.

"This airforce(the PAF), is second to none"

"The air war lasted two weeks and the Pakistanis scored a
three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets
and losing thirty-four airplanes of their own. I'm certain about the
figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and
counted the wrecks below." "They were really good, aggressive
dogfighters and proficient in gunnery and air combat tactics. I was
damned impressed. Those guys just lived and breathed flying. "

(General (Retd.) Chuck Yeager (USAF) , Book: Yeager, the
General Chuck Yeager, famous USAF test pilot, on deputation in
Pakistan as US Defense Representative. The PAF remains the only
foreign air force in the world to have received Chuck Yeager's
admiration - a
recommendation which the PAF is proud of.

"He was a formidable fellow and I was glad that he was Pakistani and
not Egyptian"
(Israel Air Force chief and ex-President Ezer Weizmen writing about
PAF chief Nur Khan in his autobiography, On Eagles' Wings).

"As an air defence analyst, I am fully aware that the Pakistan Air
Force ranks today as one of the best air forces in the world and that
the PAF Combat Commanders' School (CCS) in Sargodha has been ranked
as the best GCI/pilot and fighter tactics and weapons school in the
world". As one senior US defence analyst commented to me in 1991, "it
leaves Topgun (the US Naval Air Station in Miramar, California) far
-Sergey Vekhov
May 1993 issue (pages 46-47) of Airforces Monthly, a reputable
UK-based air defence magazine.

The PAF, although outnumbered by IAF(Indian Air Force), has at least
one qualitative edge over its rival: Pilot Training. The caliber of
Pakistani instructors is acknowledged by numerous air forces, and US
Navy pilots considered them to be highly 'professional' during
exercises flying off the USS Constellation (as co-pilots).

-Jane's International Defense (June 24, 1998)

"By all accounts the courage displayed by the Pakistan Air Force
pilots is reminiscent of the bravery of the few young and dedicated
pilots who saved this country from Nazi invaders in the critical
Battle of Britain during the last war."

Patrick Seale,
The Observer, London,
September 12, 1965.

"Pakistan claims to have destroyed something like 1/3rd the Indian
Air Force, and foreign observers, who are in a position to know say
that Pakistani pilots have claimed even higher kills than this; but
the Pakistani Air Force are being scrupulously honest in evaluating
these claims. They are crediting Pakistan Air Force only those
killings that can be checked from other sources."

Roy Meloni,
American Broadcasting Corporation
September 15, 1965.

The London Daily Mirror reported: "There is a smell of death in the
burning Pakistan sun. For it was here that India's attacking forces
came to a dead stop.

"During the night they threw in every reinforcement they could find.
But wave after wave of attacks were repulsed by the Pakistanis"

"India", said the London Daily Times, "is being soundly beaten by a
nation which is outnumbered by four and a half to one in population
and three to one in size of armed forces."

In Times reporter Louis Karrar wrote: "Who can defeat a nation which
knows how to play hide and seek with death"


Mustafa said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Saad said...

To see a proverbial house-wife, quote an excerpt out of Chuck Yeager's work, has been a pleasant surprise for me.

Keep up the good work!

And thank you for commenting on my blog.

The Luscious one! said...

@Saad - I thought the analysis was first class. Thanks for the compliments.

I believe there is a few more quotes that i couldn't get my hands on.

One is from the Air Chief of US Air force, the man responsible for the desert storm air operations in his autobiography. I couldn't locate that one.

Da Eternal Rebel said...

The post came on 16th December 2008, exactly 37 years after 90000 "formidable" Pakistani soldiers surrendered to Gen. Arora , the biggest surrender after WW2. How ironic.

The Luscious one! said...

@Saad - I thought the analysis was first class. Thanks for the compliments.

I believe there is a few more quotes that i couldn't get my hands on.

One is from the Air Chief of US Air force, the man responsible for the desert storm air operations in his autobiography. I couldn't locate that one.

The Luscious one! said...

@Saad - I thought the analysis was first class. Thanks for the compliments.

I believe there is a few more quotes that i couldn't get my hands on.

One is from the Air Chief of US Air force, the man responsible for the desert storm air operations in his autobiography. I couldn't locate that one.

Da Eternal Rebel said...

"In three weeks the second IndoPak War ended in what appeared to be a draw when the embargo placed by Washington on U.S. ammunition and replacements for both armies forced cessation of conflict before either side won a clear victory. India, however, was in a position to inflict grave damage to, if not capture, Pakistan's capital of the Punjab when the cease-fire was called, and controlled Kashmir's strategic Uri-Poonch bulge, much to Ayub's chagrin."

- Stanley Wolpert's India

Da Eternal Rebel said...

"Although both sides lost heavily in men and materiel, and neither gained a decisive military advantage, India had the better of the war. New Delhi achieved its basic goal of thwarting Pakistan's attempt to seize Kashmir by force. Pakistan gained nothing from a conflict which it had instigated."

---- Dennis Kux's "India and the United States estranged democracies"

Karmasura said...

What was your 'superior PAF' upto in the Kargil war, eh?

Puff as strongly as you might, India's house is not a deck of cards, but built of blood and bones of its people.

It shows that you lack honesty when you reply to Saad inspite of 'Da Eternal Rebel' posting comments.


thank u for visiting!!

Ur blog seems to be quite a mix of hedonism and politics... something like ancient Rome... I like the mix!!!

Keep the posts coming :)

BTW I've recently been to Islamabad and loved it!!

Saad said...

I don't think any CSAF has ever commented on PAF. I am guessing that you're referring to IDF/AF (Israeli Defense / Air Force)'s chief's comments about Air Marshal Nur Khan.

But in case you ever do come across such comments (by CSAF), please do share 'em.

Zaki Khalid said...

@ The Luscious One,

Thank you for raising our morale further. God bless..

The Luscious one! said...

@Da Eternal Rebel. Thank you for your comments and for giving us the other view point and it is greatly appreciated.

@karmasura - No need to get emotional here. PAF knocked down to IAF MIGs during the start of the Kargil war which prevented the IAF from ever entering that conflict. Please check your facts. Thank you.(Jimmy thanks for the info. here)

Da Eternal Rebel said...

@The Luscious One

Well its a fact that Pakistan had Air superiority in 1965 and Indian Airforce, after suffering severe reverses, realized that there was a need to modernize.

Regarding that Mig-21 in Kargil, its n surprise to us, these 1960s vintage aircrafts keep on falling down even when there is no conflict :P

Saif said...

I dont want to any thing happen betwwen indai and pakistan. If any case any thing happen I hope Pakistan wont with draw like KARGIL.

Karmasura said...

Lol.. did PAF even participate in the Kargil War?? A brief survey of Pak Def Forum shows posters that it didn't

Please give me a link if you have one stating it. I'd be glad to read it.

Karmasura said...

It seems they were taken down by MANPADS and not by PAF... just to gladden you a bit.. and taking down Migs is not impressive at all, as stated by my rebellious friend..

The Luscious one! said...

The thing to keep in mind is that IAF never again attempted to start the Air war after this instance. Mig- 21s are not 60s technology as much as i know. Maybe Saad, you can help us here.

IAF could have used its top of the line Sukhoi but despite having numbers on its side it was unable to do so. Bottom line: the IAF was kept out of the conflict because of the PAK Air defense.

The Luscious one! said...

@mahraj - Thanks for visiting and i really liked your article in the Tehlka magazine.

The Luscious one! said...

Mig 21s are formidable fighting machines. They are called the 'fighter's plane' but they rely on a lot on the pilot training and skills as opposed to tech.




aq said...

Z, you forgot this source:


Da Eternal Rebel said...

@Luscious ( i won't use "one", the "first" name should suffice :) )

In India Mig 21s have come to be known as "Flying coffins" or "Killing Machines", not because what they do to enemies, but what they do to their own pilots.

Mig 21s entered service in 1959 and some of the ones in Indian Airforce are as old as that, that is why they are being phased out with Sukhoi 30s.

The last "enemy" kill of an Indian Mig 21 was when two Migs shot down a Pakistani Navy aircraft in Runn of Kutch in 1999.

Saad said...

I am guessing that you were looking for the following comment, by the planner of Desert Storm.

[quote]"Iraqi pilot training came from three sources: France, Pakistan and the former Soviet Union. Lucky for us, Soviet training proved dominant, with their emphisis on rigid rules, strict command arrangements and standardized tactics. Coupled with this centralized approach, the Soviets were suspecious of non- Russians and disliked Arabs. The Iraqi students were taught to take off and land their aircrafts safely, but otherwise their training was so basic, so lacking in advanced tactics, as to be useless. There was however a wild card. Not all Iraqi training came from the Russians.
Iraqi pilots, were trained well by their French and Pakistani instructors. Pakistan has one of the best, most combat ready airforces in the world. They have to; their neighbour to the east is huge, and the two nations, have a long history of hostilities. For Indian war planners, the Pakistan air Force is their worst fear. Pakistani pilots are respected throughout the world, especially the Islamic world, beause they know how to fly and fight.

On one or two occasions, I had the oppertunity to talk with Pakistani instructor pilots, who had served in Iraq. These discussions, didn't give me great cause to worry. The Russian domination of training prevented the Pakistanis from having any real influence on the Iraqi aircrew training program.

Still, there had to be a few Iraqi pilots, who had observed and listened to their mentors from France and Pakistan and the useless guidence of their inept leaders. It was those few, I was concerned about - the ones with great situational awareness and good eyesight, who had figured out how to effectively use their aircrafts and its weapons to defend their nation."

(General Chuck Horner (retd) and Tom Clancey. General Chuck commanded the US and allied air assets during Desert shield and desert storm, and was responsible for the design and execution of one of the most devestating air campaigns in the history. He also served as Commander 9th Air Force, Commander US Central Command Air Forces, and Commander in chief, SpaceCom. Book: Every Man A Tiger).[unquote]

Mustafa said...

The world's finest race car driver will not be able to beat me if he is driving a Corolla and I am driving a Ferrari.

Pakistani air force pilots, may be the very best in the world, but they have been left with obsolete aircraft. They will not be hold their own in aerial combat against competent Indian pilots in their magnificent Russian fighter aircraft.

40 years of corruption and mismanagement have reduced the PAF from one of the most formidable air forces in the world to, today, a mere shadow of their former self.

As a patriotic Pakistani, it breaks my heart to see my country reduced to such depths by three generations of military leadership more interested in fattening their bank accounts than in protecting our borders.

Even today, if you were to train a Pakistani pilot and equip him with an FA-18 hornet, he would single handedly take on two Sukhois at the same time and kick their sorry butt.

The challenge is to re-equip our armed forces with machines that would put them on an even playing field. To invest in education, science and technology, so our engineers, scientists and programmers start holding their own against the IIT grads.

The challenge is to create an enabling environment in Pakistan where entrepreneurs could thrive without having to worry about Mr. 10 percent and others like him.

The challenge is to throw off the yoke of feudal lords and fanatic mullahs.

The challenge is to redraft the constitution so as to make the country truly pluralistic. Why can't a Hindu lead our country? Why can't a Sikh lead our army?

The challenge is to truly embrace the spirit of Quran rather than embracing 1400 year old practices.

Tthe challenge is to in a civilised manner, compete against India at its own turf, by becoming a strong secular, pluralistic nation with a vibrant economy, with a truly independent judiciary, and a culture steeped in tolerance and meritocracy.

Inshallah that day will one day come. We will identfy and anoint our own Obama.

The Luscious one! said...

@Saad - This is exactly what i was looking for. Thanks for putting it up here for all of us. Kudos to you!

Da Eternal Rebel said...

Mustafa ! Ponder on your words or you are going to get it !!! Don't take names or hint on them. The bottle is new but the wine is the same old one :P

Remember Benazir's Brother ...

mustafa said...

Benazir's brother was another morally corrupt individual. All the Bhuttos, in my mind, were the scum of the earth.

I am so glad that Zulfikar Ali Bhutto got the ultimate payback. A Zardari, killed both his son and his daughter and usurped his throne. This story is something that Shakespeare would have been proud of.